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8/1/2015 Incident


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glennw
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During the Saturday August 1 Fleet racing the following rules situation occurred.

Rules 8/1/2015Rules 8/1/2015

Facts:

  • The inside boat was attempting to round the windward mark to port. She was not quite fetching the mark so the skipper decided to shoot head to wind in order to round.
  • The outside boat was fetching the mark before the inside boat luffed up and was forced head to wind to avoid contact.
  • Let's call the inside boat "5919" and the outside boat "135".
  • 5919 was clear ahead when entering the zone.
  • There was no contact between 5919 and 135

135 hailed 5919 "Hey! You cannot force me above close-hauled!"

  1. Was 135 correct? Should 5919 done penalty turns?
  2. Does this change if 135 was forced beyond head to wind?
  3. What if 5919 went past head to wind but never was close hauled on port?

 

 

Glenn Wesley

CraigNSC
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Same Tack

Luffing is permitted for Mark Room.  If boats approach on opposite tacks then Rule 18 applies and Luffing is not part of Mark Room.  Action was needed by 135 to avoid contact.

glennw
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NSCPA Rules

This incident was also posted to the NSCPA-Rules group. I am posting the responses from there

Glenn Wesley

glennw
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From Craig Prinski

No foul,

The first boat as drawn was clear ahead as diagrammed.  If there is no overlap the boat clear ahead is entitled to “Mark Room” 18.2 (b)  Mark Room is room to sail to the mark AND round it as necessary to sail the course  Definition of Mark Room. 

1. 135 is incorrect in her assertion as outside and windward she must give way
2. While difficult it may be possible to take 135 head to wind, however if in the course of doing so (or attempting to force 135 head to wind or beyond) 5919 passes head to wind herself she is tacking an loses her rights.  Additionally mark room only provides you room to round on a proper course so you must also have “luffing rights” to force a boat above your proper course..
3. Once you have passes head to wind you have tacked you have Rule 13 (while tacking keep clear) and then Rules10 issues (port starboard) with the other boat. Additionally if after passing head to wind you return to starboard tack 18.3 applies, you have tacked in the zone, you must not cause the other boat to sail above close hauled to round.  If they are already close hauled and fetching you may not get room inside.

-Craig Priniski
Thistle 1678r
U.S. Sailing CoacH

Glenn Wesley

casmithlo
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From Craig Smith

I agree with the Craig P.  5919 created no foul, as long as she did not pass head to wind.  This is due to the fact that she was clear ahead when reached the zone.

Craig Smith Thistle 818 Thistle 740

dcreasoner
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From Dan Reasoner

Yup, no foul by 5919 at all, even if there was any type of an overlap or not.

Do not consider the mark, remove the mark, the mark is not a factor in this situation.

-      The boat astern must keep clear.
-      Once an overlap is established, the windward boat must keep clear.

However, the boat ahead/leeward with rights should not make an abrupt course change that does not allow the other boat to keep clear, thus it would be good to hale your intention to luff.

Best Regards,
Dan Reasoner
215-997-7680
dcreasoner@comcast.net

Dan Reasoner

glennw
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Clear ahead?

The no-foul determination does not depend on 5919 being clear ahead when entering the zone.

If 135 had an overlap, since 5919 was the inside boat she is still entitled to mark room according to Rule 18 (below). Moreover she is sailing her proper course by rounding, albeit with little margin for error. So, as long as 5919 does not pass head-to-wind she is okay.

The luffing rights (Rule 17) only applies if luffing is not the proper course. In this case it is the proper course.

Glenn

17 ON THE SAME TACK; PROPER COURSE
If a boat clear astern becomes overlapped within two of her hull lengths to leeward of a boat on the same tack, she shall not sail above her proper course while they remain on the same tack and overlapped within that distance, unless in doing so she promptly sails astern of the other boat. This rule does not apply if the overlap begins while the windward boat is required by rule 13 to keep clear.
18.2(a) When boats are overlapped the outside boat shall give the inside boat mark-room, unless rule 18.2(b) applies.
18.2(b) If boats are overlapped when the first of them reaches the zone, the outside boat at that moment shall thereafter give the inside boat mark-room. If a boat is clear ahead when she reaches the zone, the boat clear astern at that moment shall thereafter give her mark-room.

Proper Course A course a boat would sail to finish as soon as possible in the absence of the other boats referred to in the rule using the term. A boat has no proper course before her starting signal.
Mark-Room Room for a boat to leave a mark on the required side. Also,
(a) room to sail to the mark when her proper course is to sail close to it, and
(b) room to round the mark as necessary to sail the course.
However, mark-room for a boat does not include room to tack unless she is overlapped inside and to windward of the boat required to give mark-room and she would be fetching the mark after her tack.

Glenn Wesley

blough
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Shooting marks and dead ducks

i under-stand marks all the time and have to shoot.  I am wondering if you shoot head to wind and whilst coasting, a windshift occurs and puts you past head to wind, but not due to your own actions.  I assume you are considered to be tacking then and just a dead-duck.  

is that what you would say?This actually happened to me with Brent nearby earlier this year. he just quietly sailed by w/out complaint, but later i realized that maybe he didn't notice i had passed head-to-wind

randy&debbie

dcreasoner
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From Dan Reasoner

Good Question Randy…

It seems you changed your course in such a manner allowing others room to keep clear, so you didn’t violate Rule 16.1.

I believe based upon the name of Rule 13 “While Tacking”… the rule implies you are indeed tacking. Although your boat was beyond head to wind, you were not tacking and did not tack, thus under Rule 13 you were not necessarily obligated to keep clear even though your boat was beyond head to wind.

However, the definition of “Tack” says, a boat is on the tack, starboard or port, corresponding to her windward side. You went on to port tack, and you are a dead-duck until you go back to starboard.

Best Regards,
Dan Reasoner
215-997-7680
dcreasoner@comcast.net

Dan Reasoner

Brent Benson
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From Brent Benson

I think that Dan is basically correct.  However, I did not see the possible infraction when it happened, as Randy said, I  "..... just quietly sailed by w/out complaint, but later i realized that maybe he didn't notice i had passed head-to-wind...."  If the sails were not trimmed on Port, i.e. luffing, then it would not have been obvious, which is likely why I missed it.

I have found that wind shifts are a similar problem in crossing situation while beating.  Situation:  Port is safely but closely crossing Stbd, when a lift brings up Stbd into a collision course, and the header on the other tack drops Port down closer to Stbd.  This could be tough luck for Port, though an excuse could be that Stbd changed course without giving Port opportunity to respond.  This is why, if I am the Stbd boat, I do not change course and follow the lift.  I feel that if Port does still not cross because of the header, then Port has fouled, largely by bad luck, since I maintained course.

I would be interested in the thoughts of the rest of you.

Brent Benson

gbonner
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From Gary Bonner

It seems to me that if a boat passes head to wind, whether by the boat turning or a wind shift, it is tacking and subject to rule 13 until on a close hauled course.  In the case of a wind-shift induced tack, the tack is not caused by an action of the boat, and the boat therefore is entitled to room to keep clear under rule 15.

In the mark rounding situation, the shooting boat is no longer entitled to mark room once they pass head to wind. If they've shot far enough to clear the mark (though not likely given the shift), and tack back to starboard to round the mark, they can not cause the other boat to sail above close hauled.

However, as Brent said, it can be difficult to see if a boat with flogging sails has passed head to wind.

I agree with Brent’s assessment of the port crossing situation. If starboard holds course and port can’t keep clear, it’s port’s bad luck and they foul starboard. Starboard can ride up with the lift as long as they give port room to keep clear, but if port fails to keep clear, it could be arguable who caused the foul.